The Clarence Stowers Leadership Podcast

Bi-Vocational Series: Mastering Time Management & Avoiding Burnout

• Clarence E. Stowers, Jr. • Episode 15

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Podcast Show Notes: "Mastering Time Management and Avoiding Burnout"

🎙️ Welcome to The Clarence Stowers Leadership Podcast! I'm your host, Clarence E. Stowers, Jr., and we're on a mission to grow 1% better each day. In this space, we empower you with actionable insights for excellence in leadership and life.

Introduction: Dive into the world of bi-vocational leadership, where the balancing act between ministry and secular work presents unique challenges. This episode is a treasure trove of strategies for effective time management and practical tips to avoid all-too-common burnout. Join us as experienced leaders share their journeys, offering a blueprint for success.

Bi-vocational Ministry & Leadership:

  • We delve into the intricacies of managing dual vocations, understanding the tug-of-war between spiritual duties and secular obligations.
  • Discover the power of prioritization and resilience. Learn how these key principles can anchor you in both worlds, ensuring you fulfill your roles with grace and effectiveness.

Time Management:

  • Time is a finite resource, and mastering its use is an art form. We discuss the benefits of structured scheduling and the digital tools that can make planning seamless.
  • Saying 'no' is not just a refusal; it's an affirmation of your priorities. Gain insights into assertive communication and boundary setting that can safeguard your time and energy.

Defining & Dealing with Burnout:

  • Burnout can creep in unnoticed. We break down its early signs and the strategies you can adopt to combat it.
  • Prioritize self-care and recognize it as an essential aspect of your professional life. We share self-care practices that can rejuvenate and maintain your zest for both your vocations.

Closing Thoughts: As we wrap up, we emphasize the importance of self-awareness and the power of intentional living. These aren't just concepts but daily practices that can lead to a fulfilling bi-vocational journey.

Thank you for tuning in. Visit [Podcast Website] for more enriching episodes. Let's continue on our path to 1% daily improvement, embracing every step of this leadership journey.

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Transcript

You look like a million bucks. Come on, man. I just need that to drop into your account. I'ma be good. Oh, man.  Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Man, check this out, man. How's the family? Man, everybody's doing good.

Everybody's doing well. Sir, how about yours? Man, everybody's good, man. Grown and gone, like I like it. Doc. But they like boomerangs, man. Throw them away, they circle back, eat up all our food, take all our groceries, and it's like they don't go to the grocery store. Our house is the grocery store.  And they come in, man, like those guys in Second Kings, then should we stay here or should we go and plunder?

They plundered, brother.  I don't feel bad then.  Not at all, man. Not at all. I thought I was, I thought I was in the club by myself, but. Oh, no, man. You ain't in the club by yourself, brother. No, indeed. No, indeed. Man, look here, man. I appreciate you responding to my clarion call. I've  been busy doing a few things, working on a few projects.

I see, man. And congratulations, man. Oh, man. You're too kind. You're too kind. You're too kind. And let me get my screen and stuff up.  You're just too kind, brother. Too kind. Man, please. I need to borrow from your discipline so I can get some more stuff done. Oh, man, that's what it's all about, man.

I'm here to share  everything that I have, everything that I know. So whatever you need, I got you covered. Got you. I appreciate it. Appreciate it. Cool. Cool. All right. I'm gonna bring the screen up real quick. I just had it right here.  And

where is that? Okay.

That's not it.

That's it. Yep. I got it up now. All right. What I'm trying to do is, man, I have a podcast I've been running and then of course.  Navigating, transitioning our church and to the final phase it's time, the Lord's been pressing up on my heart to bring it back and the focus of this podcast that in the era of celebrity pastors mainstream, they basically.

Only see that and surmise that all churches are as such Wow We know man because we've been in the trenches and we have our ear to the ground that it is not that way It's a very small percentage and there are a lot of pastors I believe in church leaders who are being overlooked who are incredible in their presentation of the other gospel and the world needs to hear it man and so whatever platform the Lord have given me my goal is as you take flight when the plane pushes back from the gate, they have this little truck in front of it that attaches to the front of the plane.

And the goal is to push that plane back  so that it can get on the runway. And that's this last season of my life is. Attaching myself to the Great Plains and  pushing them back to get them on the runway, in order to soar to its highest heights. And that's what I want my lasting legacy to be.

And so that's why I have this podcast and,  uh, thank you, brother. I did a segment 2023, 2022, 2023 about,  uh, what if they don't come back? We thought it was all around that whole COVID piece and then leading into today, which COVID produced a lot of bivocational pastors and church leaders and man, these are the stories.

I believe  that's going to encourage a good 80%.  Of those in ministry, because man it's real. And you're out there, the same guys that I know, and more in other cities, other states, having these same conversations. So if we can just shed a little light on that. And then help those who are bivocational, man, I think it would go a long way in encouraging them.

And then also giving them some solid tools, advice from your lived experience that, that can help them as well. So that's where I'm thinking where I'm headed. And I got some questions that I'm going to ask and it's about, the background challenges. Some time management tips, dealing with burnout things that we know well.

And just to let you know, man, I appreciate you. Love you. And  your input is valuable. I'm just honored and appreciative to you, man, for extending the invitation.  Man, it's the least that I can do. I'm glad you responded. So I'm going to open up with a word of prayer. 

Let us pray.  Lord, we just thank you for this moment to sit down with my friend my brother, my colleague in ministry  who was preacher par excellence.

Thank you for his journey. His story, his lived experience, Lord, from coming through health challenges to being restored and leading a thriving church today. Thank you for Sonia. We thank you being this constant support. Biggest cheerleader, best friend. We pray blessings on her and throughout the Spencer household and One Church Chicago family.

Lord, we come today to converse, to share Pastor Anthony Spencer's lived experiences.  To encourage  sister, the brother who's in ministries, giving it their all, but yet and still have to manage other obligations and duties as a faith leader,  we pray Lord that you would allow your spirit just to open him up.

The wealth of wisdom and knowledge so that millions will be blessed by hearing  that there is truth, that there is a reward and faithfulness. We pray  that this is an opportunity for the world  to see the overlooked leader, to see the real pastor in the trenches,  holding down their patch in the vineyard. 

Being the ligaments and the sinews that, that, that keep the body together. I want to thank you in advance for all that we will experience. And we pray that this is not only just a day, but an incredible day and a win. But the kingdom of God we asked this today in Jesus's name. Amen.  Amen. All right, my brother, we are here and I'm excited to get started, man.

I got my pad.  And part of that adding value is understanding where we are and helping these bike vocational sisters and brothers in ministry. 

And then the glean from your lived experience and why I keep harping on that, no one can argue. The thing about your lived experience and that is that it mirrors many who are in the faith right now, trying to lead that congregations, feeling like they're all alone, not knowing that they have someone pioneers who've already paved that path who can share a good light.

We're calling this segment mastering time management.  And avoiding burnout. And with this stated, it allows us to, to delve deeper into those said areas and then be able to have a conversation that literally adds value. Today, as mentioned on this podcast, we're diving into the crucial  topic. 

That I believe touches all church leaders, especially those who are juggling  ministry and secular work.  So this segment, Mastering Time Management and Avoiding Burnout, I want to share, of course,  personal experiences from those who I've conversed with, but to hear your personal Experience and strategy  no doubt can help many  maintain that balance in that dueling role. 

And we think about  time management.  It isn't just about getting things done, but it's about creating a balanced life.  And burnout, on the other hand,  is the exhaustion that comes from the chronic stress, , often seen in, in leaders who wear multiple hats. And I didn't know this, but according to a recent study, a Barner study  says over 50 percent of pastors feel overwhelmed by their responsibilities.

And so we want to explore that. And help change that narrative and in doing so this conversation  free flowing as it is, I'm excited to be joined by Pastor Anthony Spencer, my favorite preacher. But don't tell.  No one else who think that they might be, but this is my favorite preacher to hear, to listen, to be filled and inspired.

Pastor of One Church Chicago, you're going to hear that story as well, who has successfully navigated these challenges. What you won't see. On the Clarence Storrs Leadership Podcast is a continual elevation of those pastors and celebrity preachers, which are a fraction of those who are actually in the trenches doing the work.

The focus is on amazing  pastors and church leaders who are in  the trenches doing the work every day. Who may not be major in the eyes of people, but are majors in the eyes of their communities and the people that they interface with every day. The overlooked leader, just because a person is overlooked,  don't mean that they are not doing their work  in the kingdom of God.

And  my guest today my friend, my brother, Pastor Anthony Spencer.  We can kick this off, man, by telling us a little bit about who you are  and then a little bit about One Church Chicago, how it all came together.  Yes, sir. First of all, Dr. Storrs, thank you for this privilege and opportunity, man to be a part of this leadership podcast.

I am humbled and honored to be connected with you first and foremost, and then to be able to share this platform. Thank you so much. Again, I'm I'm I guess the best way to describe me is to describe those that I'm connected to. And so I'm the husband of an incredible woman named Sonia Spencer.

We are parents of six incredible Children, five boys and one girl. And recently we've had an addition to the family. So we're grandparents now. Paul to be exact. ,  Incredible church. We've been in existence as a matter of fact, this is our 25th year. And so God has been amazingly faithful to us.

And so we're at a point now where we're understanding with all of the different dynamics of what has transpired even before covid. But even since then, the necessary changes That are required for us to continue to be relevant and to continue to make an impact in the world around us. So we're excited about the hour that we're in  wonderful six children, five gentlemen, one daughter and the grand, a grand baby.

Paul,  man, we are faithfully looking forward to that day. My wife and I married 31 years. Wow. I still have no grandchildren.  My kids living they best life. You listen they doing it. I ain't hating whatsoever.  Oh man. Tell me about it. Tell me about it. So tell me this pastor. Tell me this. Tell me this.

 Can you share a bit about your journey? As a bivocational leader what inspired you to take this role?  First of all, when I came into the pastorate, I was actually working a secular position,  came off the job, feeling a little glory to do so I could focus on ministry had been doing so for at least 24 years.

I was diagnosed in November of 21 with multiple myeloma.  So I took some time off quite, of course from the pulpit, which was my main source of income, both as pastoring, as well as an itinerant preacher. And during that time again funds were not coming in. And so we started living off credit cards and again, so things were transparent.

And so when I started getting better from the help challenge.  I understood that.  I needed to do something, as the head of my household to make certain that and I knew don't get me wrong. I wasn't attempting to take God's spot or position. I knew that we were not going to go under, but I also understand faith without works is dead.

Come on. I was given an opportunity to come back into to the marketplace and I jumped on it and here's what was. Funny about that pastor. I was hesitant because I thought that this would affect my  communion with God, cause I had, I become used to. A certain regimen in terms of, me hanging out with him and hearing from him and that's what I was really confident in terms of whatever success my ministry had was based upon my relationship with God.

And so he assured me  that everything would be smooth. Everything would be well, just. Follow his leading. And since July, actually, of last year, we've been in this bifocational space again, and as challenging as I thought it was going to be. It was much better than I anticipated. Oh man.

Incredible.  And just to hear  you navigate that challenge  is enlightening and encouraging as well, and you did it  in a way that you've experienced both paths from pastoring and having faith coming off the job,  dedicating oneself to full time ministry. And then going through the health challenge and then understanding being that provider for one's family, going back into that role of bivocational ministry. 

What were some of the initial challenges you faced balancing  the secular job with ministry work?  Oh again, first of all.  Going in, of course, I had to readjust my schedule, so one of the things that I'm really focused on was maintaining my prayer life. And again, with having this secular position now, had to get up a little earlier because I wanted to make sure I still spent time with God.

And then was able to do all of the other things that I needed to do. And so the main thing was really just making sure my schedule was solid and that I stuck to the schedule versus, I had a little more freedom  prior to that. But this really helped me to hone in and to sharpen my focus, which here's the reality prior to this, my focus.

Was it at his best? And so actually going back into this by vocational space actually helped me and I'm not just even talking about from a financial perspective. I'm talking from the aspect of focus because now I had no other option. I had there was nothing to eat up my time because now I've got things that's already put in place that this time has already accounted for. 

So now I got to go ahead. Oh no. Please finish. Please finish. No. So I had to make sure everything was in order or everything was going to fall apart. I'm glad you brought that up because.  As pastors, we're more creatives as opposed to being structured and disciplined, focused, principled, et cetera.

And in addition to that you have that double artistry by being involved in all things, music, et cetera. So it's like you are artist squared.  Yes. And  What you're doing requires an incredible amount of balance and the dexterity to balance. And because artists are dominated by that creative side it segues into the next question.

 And so you're hardwired on the creative side, and now you've had them switch that role into becoming a little bit more structured and a little bit more intentional about your schedule.

So with that stated  what have been some of those initial challenges?  balancing  the creative side with Mal, the productive breadwinner,  stabilizing my household side. And how did you manage that?  Wow. Great question. As I was congratulating you before we got started with regards to your book I Yeah, I'm in the process of doing Likewise, so I'm doing a devotional  as well as another book.

And what this has helped me to do is, again, in my schedule, which  seems like We, I got a lot going on, but what I've come to discover, the more ordered my day is, the more productive my day is. And so rather than me feeling pressured to get everything done in one day,  Let me map it out  because it's better for me and you may be much better at this than I am.

I'm not good with multitasking. I need to give 100 percent of myself to whatever I'm doing at that moment because something's not going to go right. So I'm learning now how to schedule. That creativity to schedule the time to sit down. But if I get an idea about a song, particularly I scheduled time to sit down, I may grab, I may send some lyrics or something or a melody.

And so I got a a little voice recorder on my phone. So I'll jot that down and then, but I'll come back to it.  And then work it out from that point. Same thing with my sermons. If I get an idea, I got the note in my phone, I put the notes down, then I'll come back and go through that in my schedule  versus  Letting, letting stuff like interrupt and again, we know stuff does happen, but as far as what's in my control, I want to make certain that I'm controlling my day and not letting my day control me. 

Good point. Good point. And that also gives or raises one's imagination on  a day in the life of Pastor Anthony Spencer. Can you give the audience a general overview of what that looks like  from the thought coming, whether it's music or sermon, sermonic related, and then how does Pastor Anthony Spencer balance that with the work day? 

Wow, this is amazing. So  I'll put it to you like this. So my day starts around 536.  a. m. At the latest. That's time. My  prayer and meditation. Yes.  Then I have to we're talking about our children. I have to drop off  my daughter to work,  come back from Villa Park.  To Maywood  to get myself together to get to work by nine in Chicago,  do my work day, get off,  head to Melrose Park, I'm sorry, Hillside, where my mother is in a nursing facility.

I gotta stay on top of that because I'm her POA. And even though she's got  incredible daughters. It's if she don't see her baby boy on a regular basis, it's going to be smoking the city,  uh, from there  at home. And again, depending on what day it is, if it's Wednesday, then I'm jumping right into Bible class.

Or if it's a Monday cause Mondays I have a standing doctor's appointment  so with the prayer meditation, dropping the door off, I'm headed to the doctor's appointment, then to work. Then to mom, then back  to the house. So now I got to schedule time with the wife with the grandbaby. She comes over on the weekends.

So I have scheduled time with that. So again, this has helped me. And I primarily again, Mark each day. I know what Mondays are like, I know what Tuesdays are like, I know what Wednesdays are like, I know what Thursdays are like, and so I schedule accordingly, and I try my best not to allow Monday to  go into Tuesday, and so on. 

And of course, I don't have that down to a science, but it's been working for me, and like I said, I've honestly, Pastor, I've gotten more done since July of 23 while I became bivocational again than I did prior to that. And again, it's because I've been forced to focus.  Forced to focus. I love that.

Stick a pin there because this is leading to something even more significant than probably you and I. Had even imagined forced to focus because there's a pastor and church leader right now listening to you  and nodding in agreement saying, this is my story. This is my story. And what you've done is given them the opportunity to see  a lived experience played out in front of them,  that there is something that they can glean from your template.

And I praise God for that because you've given a template that someone can now take that they can overlay on their specific lives. Have there been moments, could you talk a little bit about the moments where you. Felt overwhelmed by your schedule. And then how did you navigate through that? 

Oh, man.  More times than I, I can even count. So one of the things I'll speak from this wise. So with my mom.  And I was just talking about this the other day, so I've got her spoiled. Rightfully rightfully this woman has sacrificed so much for me in my life. So I make it my business to try to get there to see her every day. 

And of course, during my health challenge, there was a time where. When I was hospitalized, I had to go through a bone marrow transplant, so  it was like a month, may, maybe a little over a month that I didn't get to see her. And so  of course that was challenging. So my, my family would go and FaceTime and all of that wonderful stuff.

But since me bouncing back and getting back into my regular regimen,  I discovered that even though physically. I'm doing well and I'm, my energy level is probably back better than it's ever been, but I've also understood that even though I want to go see her every day, or I want to do this, or I want to do that, there were times where.

I had to come home and say okay, Spencer, you're doing too much.  You need to take this break. Yeah.  And so I'm understanding the power of no.  Oh my goodness. We, I'm circling back to that, but proceed brother. Because and you know this but I'll let our audience understand, like prior to this health challenge.

Man, I was preaching  two and three times a week. That was the average with no issue. And now  with coming through this health challenge, I'm understanding  that I've got to maximize all of my moments and not just pour myself  into one thing. I need to pour myself into all that God has given me.

Like you, you talked about the music side the authoring side, but those are aspects. That the world doesn't necessarily know me from or know me as fully only because I have not managed those gifts properly and the time that's given them the time that's necessary in order to birth them and bring them forth.

And. Not that, I'm thinking about dying, but I do understand what this health challenge  made me realize even the more my mortality  that I gotta empty myself. Dr. Miles Monroe talks about how we need to die empty  and so I'm doing my best with my time management  to pour.

Intentionally in places that can hold what I'm pouring so that I can establish a legacy so that I can have something beyond my life to say he was here. He made a difference. He was impactful. He was effective.

Awareness you spoke of, of one's mortality, I believe plays a significant role in what you said, forced to focus. And I heard someone say, imagine that we're taking a journey, a walk  through, through a forest. And on the left of us are trees, the right of us are trees, but there is a path. But even in the midst and amongst those trees, there's their flowers.

There are. Birds, there are animals, there are insects, there's so much beauty in taking that journey that we tend to miss it because all we're focused on is getting to the end of that path and not knowing that the end of that path is the end. So it sounds like to me that as you are now being forced, I keep coming back to that, there's something there, forced.

To focus and taking that journey that you're taking the opportunity to observe  what's on that journey. Be it your family, your mother, be it. Your children your wife and writing more songs and preparing more life changing sermons. So it sounds like you are enjoying the walk, enjoying the journey, enjoying the experience.

And a lot of that because it seems like, or appears to be a tightly regimented schedule. So can you recall a time?  When you felt close to burnout and more specifically I believe can help that bivocational system.  What were some of the signs that you noticed and saw as you approached and got close to burnout? 

Oh man, one particular, and again, I'm, I don't, I'm saying this and not to come across as arrogant, but  I've never really had issues.  In terms of  having things to preach. Okay. Yes. Yes.  It's just how me and God are connected. I've not, my problem has always been what to pick out of  the myriad of things that I'm hearing from him, but there was  Costco full of cart of groceries to choose from. 

So when I would get to those points where I'm like,  I don't know what, I don't know what I'm going to preach or I don't or I'm at a, I'm at coming toward the end of the year, and I don't know what the focus is for the upcoming year. Just little hints like that, or  me starting to be real quick in terms of attitude.

Yeah.  Just snapping off at certain things. Don't even have to be anything major, but just because of my inner frustration starts  being lashed out at other people, I realized  I'm getting close to that place of burnout and I need to rest or I need to clear my head or I need to go for a drive.

And not be going anywhere, but just going so, so that I can get away from the norm and just breathe. Yeah.  Yeah. You mentioned  being irritable.  Snapping off things of that sort, getting in the car, going for a drive. Are there any additional signs that you may have noticed that man, Spencer, it's time for me to pull back. 

I guess the other thing is from a physical perspective just sensing the tiredness in my body, but. But refusing to stop just  continuing to go and I'm and I know it, I noticed it and rather than again, taking that time, which is what I'm doing differently. Now, I would just keep going to the point that  I would literally  collapse.

I would be so tired coming home that.  I couldn't move or do anything the next day because I was so drained man. And you recognize that from the irritability short views to just being exhausted to the point where you collapse you mentioned going on a drive.  Talk to us a little bit about that because I know  my wife she loves me to the point She'll want to come with me on the drive  So walk us through how Anthony the Reverend Pastor Anthony Spencer  Pulls back from the edge of burnout walk us through that drive.

What do you do? What do you take? What do you listen to? How does it transpire  because we have an audience of Bivocationals they may not have the time to sit down and put something like that together, but they can take your template And use a favorite word of ours and tweak it and it can be a blessing.

So walk us through what that looks like.  Now here's something that's going to sound boring to most of you. So I use the example of taking the drive, but here's the reality. I hate driving. I don't like driving to the corner.

Here's what's simple for me.  Take  Saturday  afternoon,  put everybody out the house.  Just sit in the house  and do nothing. Maybe watch a game or something. Yeah. And when I tell you that is therapeutic for me,  it's not even, it's not even funny just that, that's no noise. And I'm one so one of our sons, he comes over and if nobody else is home but me, I'm going to be in a dark house.

I, I don't have to have any light other than the light coming from the television. And he comes in busting time. I got all these lights all dark. This is my man cave right now, but

no, it's just something just as simple as just being able  to not have to do anything,  not have to be anything for anybody just to be there to sit there and rub my dog's head. Come on now. Doc, it works wonders for me. And just from that. Man, I could, my bounce back is just amazing just from going through that.

And so I don't necessarily have to do anything because I,  I'm bold. But a bowl that, that, that helps my, my sons have retired me from playing basketball, so I can't do that. So no, James, I claim until  infinity.  All I can do is watch the game. I can't even pick up the ball.

They it's you're not going to embarrass us, but yeah, that, that really does it for me. And so I think each individual. Has to find out, like you stated what, how they need to tweak things and what works for them, because it may not necessarily be a drive, but for some, it is okay. And whatever works for you, you gotta take advantage of it.

You gotta take advantage of it.  I'm glad you mentioned that because  most people think. Pastors are, especially popular pastors pastors who are itinerant as oneself are social and gregarious. But what I'm discovering in the latter that they draw energy from withdrawing either in, in total solace or with just a smaller group of people.

To be reenergized and  people will be amazed because they think we're all social butterflies, but in reality, we are social in a small trusted circle. That's another episode. Nonetheless, I'm glad that you shared light on that. What kind of dog do you have?  We have a Shih Tzu. Shitzu. All right. All right.

Yeah. Her name is Lexi. Lexi. Oh yeah. We have a poodle named Stormy. Wow. And she's 12 years old and mean as a bear  man. Our dog thinks she's a bulldog, right? She thinks she'll pit bull for real, right?

they got the big dog. What's crazy about that  pastor? What? What's crazy about that is that I didn't want the dog at first. Yeah.  They talked me into the, to, to getting the dog. I told them, I said, listen,  the only way, 'cause our children were younger, the only way we're gonna get this dog, y'all gonna have to take turns walking her and all that.

Feeding her and all that. Yeah. None of that happened. Come on. None of it. Same here, brother.  Same here. I feed  her,  take her to the doc, take her to get groomed. Yeah. But I love it. Same here, man. Yep. Yep. Same here, brother. But I love it. And it was my daughter's dog. Now, my daughter's 22, so she got it when she was a kid, and all they like to do is play with them when they're groomed. 

Exactly.  Good, man. First get a chance to see a different side of Pastor Anthony Spencer, man, and you've shared.  a wealth of information. We know about Lexi. We know about the family. We know about all that you've done to  counter burnout. What I would like to shift to now is some practical advice some lessons learned because we want this to be not only informative, but we also want it to be helpful.

Yes, sir. For those in bi vocational ministry.  What's one piece of advice, man, you wished someone had given you when you returned as a bi vocational leader?  Wow.  How things have changed  both technologically and otherwise. It was, Yeah, it was an awakening to me because and  not that it was that hard adjusting, but again, because I had been out  for so long,  it just took some adjusting.

So just understanding the different dynamics. Of how the workplace goes, if I could have got a tutorial on that would have really assisted me in my adjustment. But again, since then I've really fallen in line with everything. And so it's a lot better at this point, a lot better.

And I know because when we talk about all things technology, and I try  to keep my fingers.  On that pulse of the moment, because I don't want to be that person, nor lead people, nor see my colleagues be the people left behind,  closing the digital divide and all things technical for me is huge. And you mentioned the changes and what and how the workplace. 

Is now,  what would be really helpful, especially for this audience, is sharing, sharing a significant lesson that you learned about balancing ministry and secular work. Help a fellow pastor, help a fellow church leader that, that will bless them. To glean from your lived experience.

So you and I come from a generation of pastors that  for the most part, that's all they did  was pastor. So they were able to be at every bedside of a sick member. They were able to be at every funeral that didn't matter what the family member, whether it was an uncle or aunt, a mother, they were just there all of these significant things. 

I had come to the point where I was trying to do that.  And I realized that wasn't my call  that because I have a wife and I'm not knocking our predecessors, but  I don't want my wife  when I'm done or when I die  to have this issue of regret and be mad with the church because of all not all that they took that I gave that they may not even have even been asking for my Lord.

And so I've determined that I'm going to be the pastor God wants me to be, not the pastor the people want me to be  because that fluctuates,  that changes. Some days they want you to be this evangelistic pastor. Then they want you to be an authoritative pastor. Then they want you to be the pastor that, that shouts them every week.

No, you gotta be. who God has called you to be. And you've got to understand that you are not just called to that church or to that people. Your marriage is a calling. Raising your children is a calling.  You, your wellbeing, your mental health, your physical health is a calling. And I've seen far too many pastors in my estimation die prematurely  because they did not know how to balance life ministry. 

Or even workplace in ministry. And so I'm making certain that I'm identifying what's priority. And I'm not going to let those things overlap. I'm going to go  with how the list has been established. I'm not going to allow other people's  emergencies become an urgency for me. Unless I feel led in that.  I've got a life  preaching.

I got a life outside of posturing. And I want to enjoy that. My goodness, my brother, that is a level of  maturity that I know came out of a lot of  decisions that were made,  were necessarily good for the person, but wasn't necessarily healthy  for pastor Anthony Spencer. And to get to that level of maturity takes Seasons of pain seasons of hurt  seasons of reflection and to be able to do all of that brings one  to appreciate your lived experience.

And you mentioned  feeling led to in certain regards, in certain areas.  So that means that you,  based on what you shared earlier about learning to say no that.  I'm willing to suggest that delegation is a part of your vocabulary and so how do you effectively empower others now that you're balancing  secular with the sacred? 

So one of the things as it relates to ministry, particularly I've discovered pastor that  in terms of delegation, if we don't have people to do certain things, then those certain things won't get done.  I'm done trying to make certain everything is covered. Yes. That is not what God called me to do.

Come on now. He called me to oversee.  Yes. Yes. And if I'm involved in everything, if I'm leading everything, then I can't oversee. So that means my perspective is going to be off, my perception is going to be off, and that's not where the people need me to be. Just for instance. So  if the church needs cleaning, I have no problem cleaning, but is that where the people need me?

Come on, man. Do they need me cleaning the church or do they need me prepping so that I can have a word to minister to them?  So we delegate that.  All of the other areas of ministry that are required, we delegate those because if we don't, here's the deal, here's the deal, even if I do it, Yeah.  Yes. Yes. Yes.

Because I'm doing too much. So why not focus on what I do well and  to turn one of your phrases and focus on getting better  at least 1 percent every day versus  Losing my my betterment  by draining 1 percent  every day,  because if I'm not, if I'm not getting better,  what am I doing? Losing my edge. I'm diminishing in my ability.

So I gotta make certain. We're passing. Nobody took out the garbage. Okay we need to find somebody to take out the garbage because I'm about to go preach. Come on now.  That's one thing we're not going to lack

you. You help Your analysis  and reflection, I can tell and know because I know you and I know your story and what you're sharing comes from  a place of deep reflection.  And you mentioned something that stood out and  I believe that it could bless this audience. Because bivocational ministry has a way of throwing everything in disarray and making life chaotic.

Oh, wow. Yes, sir. What of, what is it that Pastor Anthony Spencer will not delegate and then compare that to something that he will?  What's non negotiable? What's non,  what's, what's a non delegating task for you? What does that look like? The Sunday morning experience.  As far as that preaching moment.

Now, of course, the times when I'm out, of course we'll bring in. And if I get to that place where, I feel like I need a break, I'll bring someone in or have one of our ministers to to preach that day. But for the most part because again I know better than anyone.

the direction that our ministry is heading in,  uh, or should be headed in. And so I want to make certain that I'm giving direction.  I've got to the point pastor, and I know you are there as well.  And I used to be in this place where I was trying to be impressive and more focused on the people's response in the room.

Yes.  I'm understanding now, they can respond in the room, but not extract anything out of the room or from your message. That's going to bring change into their lives, man. So I want to make certain every Sunday that I get up every Wednesday that I'm teaching Bible class that I'm extending direction and pointing people to a goal with. 

I'm not just. Attempting to come up with something to preach to say, okay, I've covered this Sunday and let me figure out. No, I will. I want the sermons and the teachings to be directional, to be pointing towards something to build one on the other. So that's something that I cannot, that's a non negotiable for me.

I've got to make certain that what, whatever is coming across here on Sunday morning is pointing us to the goal that God has set before us.  Ah, I love that. And  bivocational pastors and church leaders can get so bogged down with busyness that they forget  the primary, what the primary responsibility is. 

And I'm glad you're protecting that preaching moment, that preparation, because what we say literally has the ability to determine.  One's eternal state, eternity hangs in the balance. And that's just Thanksgiving, dinner, everyone has someone in their family that they make the mac and cheese and  we can tell when someone else tried to do something that was outside of their authority.

That person back, ain't Agnes. No, you are on the mac and cheese. And I'm glad you said that because.  Other people's emergencies what calls us to operate outside of what's pushing God's agenda forward and knowing what to delegate versus what not to delegate is huge in  shaping one's experience in bivocational ministry.

So give us a couple of examples of what you delegated.  I was of the persuasion that,  not to say that I don't give input, but I was of the persuasion that  The men's ministry had to be led by the pastor.  Yeah. And I was like, why  when we've got other capable men  who can watch this, not be a voice, but be an echo. 

Of what we're already saying, men that I can trust, why not let them handle it? And so that's exactly what we've done. So I had one of our elders, he actually came to me about galvanizing the men. I said, you put it together. I'll be on the call. Whatever you need me to do, I'll do it. But this is your baby.

You spearhead it. You run with it. And I promise you, I'll make sure you're not running by yourself.  And that takes pressure off me. Of trying to come up with something else. Yes. Amid the million other things that we're already dealing with and when you have capable people and people you can trust, it makes it, it makes a world of difference,  a world of difference man,  a mutual friend of ours it reminds me that last statement you made a mutual friend of ours.

We both know Pastor Charles Jenkins.  the sermon. I remember he, he followed the late great Reverend Dr. Clay Evans and  he had on one of Clay's suits, his shoes and all of the above,  but it literally was a reminder of. How Clay's Reverend Dr. Clay Evans, I'm forgive me for saying clay Lord. I got to respect  Reverend Dr.

Clay Evans suit didn't fit.  So as you remember that he began to take off the clothes and eventually revealed what fits him and man  that stuck with me. And it still sticks with me to understand that,  some advice that we receive and I was in the same room when you received that advice  about the pastor leading the men just don't fit, especially in the context of a bivocational pastor who has to balance secular work with the sacred work, a schedule, a home, and now  I believe it robs another person of that ability to effectively leave.

So I'm glad that maturity and reflection allowed you to do that, allowed you to hear that and with that stated, looking ahead, this is as we get ready to round out this conversation, looking ahead,  what are your aspirations? As a bivocational leader what are you working towards both in your Secular career and in ministry. 

So in the secular side, I'm working with an organization that services people who have been impacted indirectly and directly by gun violence to connect them with mental health services, behavioral health services, which is something I was. Actually doing already as a pastor, but now I'm able to watch this, not to take all the pressure on myself  to try to operate in the vein and in the lane that I'm not qualified for it.

So I get to direct people to the professionals that can assist them beyond prayer  and enable people to identify some of the things that they're dealing with as relates to that grief. As it relates to their trauma to be able to be healed, not just spiritually, but also psychologically.  And I'm desiring to do more of that and so we're trying to branch out with that and connect more people because the reality is our people  speaking specifically of African American individuals have been traumatized over the years and denied it. 

And so  I want to help people to be able to identify their trauma.  Versus anesthetizing. My God.  And so that's one of the things we're doing in that regard from the spiritual side. Again, I want to  the time I have left in the earth is to help people to truly become committed followers of Jesus Christ and to do that from a lived experience.

We've been talking about this entire conversation. It's not just Seeing themselves outside of Jesus, but seeing Jesus within them and then expressing that in their roles at home, on their jobs, in their communities, because that's really what him speaking in Matthew 5 about us letting our light so shine.

That's really what it's about is expressing who he is to the world. It's like when we put salt in food, when you put salt in food, you can't unsalt it. It's been flavored and I think that the church has been spending more time with itself  versus  doing as Jesus has called us to do and that's being salt and light.

I really am trying to get people to understand the importance of being salt and light and understanding that while we are in all of Jesus,  we can also be like Jesus. Oh, man, that's a rich statement. Say that one more time. So the listener can get it, put it where the goats can get it.  So yeah, I want to make sure that we understand what we, the flavor that we give to the world.

It won't be denied once, once we start flavoring the places we go, the people we're connected to, they will know that they've experienced us. So we don't just have to be in all of God. Cause you know, our worship experience, that's so overwhelming and  we're crying and we're weeping and we're laying prostrate, but when we get up, guess what?

We don't just have to be in all of God. We can be used of God. So the things that we. Out him for and celebrate him for guess what he wants to partner with us to do some of those things in the earth You have the privilege of being used by God. Yes is where I want people to get to I don't want I don't want us to just have our hands out to receive from God, but have our hands available So God, whatever you need, whatever you want me to do here.

I am  and see listeners. This is  Pastor Anthony Spencer pulling from that,  that cart full  Costco cart  field  of nuggets. Preaching material that it just seems to flow like a water hose. So man, we got to get you back to talk about how we can preach like pastor Anthony Spencer. I want to do that segment.

So I'm putting you, I'm putting you on the spot right now.  We want it. I know my colleagues want it. And at least you get to hear from the man before preaching his stuff. Man, I will be honored whenever you need me to come back. Absolutely. I'll be honored. And that last answer that you gave about salt. And  the vision you have for believers, man, I didn't even have to ask the last question because  you share with us the impact that you hope to leave through both your dual roles, the secular role in dealing with the traumatic experiences that urban pastors face.

And then that spiritual world living  as Jesus intended for us to live. Because when we see as Jesus sees, Then we'll quite naturally be able to do what Jesus says. And by sharing that, man I really appreciate you. What big projects that you're working on that we can support? Is there a book to buy a song to, to buy?

We want to make sure that we get resources into the hands of those who are listening and watching this. So what you're working on that's big that we can buy.  All right. So right now the only thing that you're able to buy is I do have a single as out. It's called shout it down. It's on, on, on all digital outlets, but soon and very soon we'll, and we'll be giving the information on the release date.

Our first  slash devotional is going to be coming out. Our target is father's day. Yeah. So we'll have that out and I'll make sure if you don't mind to even use your leadership podcast as as the first place where I let it be known when it's ready, when it's ready to be released.

You have a standing invitation brother. And again, I love this because. You,  uh, the audience is encouraged other bivocational pastors and church leaders who may have a book in them, a devotional, a song, a play, a screen, a screenplay. Hey we thinking way outside of normal parameters and to be able to come back and talk about that give us.

That single once again, because I want to make sure that the audience hears it so that we can go and purchase it and add it to our playlist. Yes, sir. It's entitled Shout It Down. Again, it's on all digital outlets by Anthony Spencer. Got it. Got it. And we will make sure that we  Take good advantage of that and add that to our playlist man You've been such a blessing in my life and I'm glad people get a chance to see a different side of pastor Anthony Spencer in addition to the 30 40 minutes of Nuggets that he drops you can't take notes when he preaches just say forget it  And just receive and go back and listen to the record and then take notes.

But if you're there in person, put your notebooks down, just experience and receive,  and be blessed therein. Man, you've made an impact. And I just want to let you know this personally, an impact far beyond that you can experience that you would even know. And I'm looking forward to that day when we all in God's presence, that someone comes and taps Pastor Anthony Spencer on the shoulder and says, Hey, you may not know me. 

But I read your devotional. I downloaded your song. I heard a clip of you preaching. Or I attended a service at One Church Chicago.  And now I'm here. I'm in the presence of the Lord. Because of you and man, that's when we can all just step back and say, man, now we know what Jesus meant. Well done,  good and faithful servant, stay faithful  to what you're doing, man.

Because what you are doing  is bigger  than the place you're sitting right now.  And the four walls that contain one church, Chicago,  much bigger. So with that stated, you have the last words, anything you want to share with our audience, man take us on in brother.  The last thing I would say, pastor is just a reminder that time is an economy. 

And so a lot of times we waste wealth.  Because we waste time  and when we recognize the power and the value of our time,  then it's going to make a difference in not just how much we make,  but it's going to make a difference in the difference we make in the lives of people.  Stated my brother there you all have that's pastor Anthony Spencer  pioneer in this one  area of bivocational ministry have seen it from both angles.

And then being able to reflect and give nuggets of wisdom that can help each and every one of you. Where can people visit One Church Chicago? Where can they watch you all online? Give us all of the areas One Church Chicago. Absolutely. Thank you. One Church Chicago. We're located on the Great West Side of Chicago in K Town. 

4344 West Madison, right at Madison and Costner. Our services are every Sunday morning at 9 a. m. And, or you can watch us virtually on our Facebook page, One Church Chicago, or YouTube, One Church Chicago.  There you have it. And trust me, you all will  not  uh, experience one of Chicago's great, greatest preachers. 

I even put that up throughout this land. You will not, you can not go to heaven without hearing my brother and experiencing all that God have placed in his life. You will not be disappointed. Trust me, you will not be disappointed. So with that stated we have on record past Anthony Spencer will be backed at, in the near future.

So we can learn how to preach  past Anthony Spencer,  did a whole sermon prep process as a bivocational leader. And then of course to hear. Here about his devotional and how it's going to be a blessing to the kingdom of God. And so we thank you, my brother, wish nothing but God's blessings over you,  Sonia, Spencer family, One Church Chicago,  everything that your hand touches.

And I'm praying on an Ephesians three and 20 blessings over your  that the thing that you even imagined  is too small in the eyes of God that he's able to do exceedingly abundantly  above all that you can ever imagine to ask for. And that's you, my brother. Thank you, man. Love you. And man, I can't wait to see what happens next.

Bless you, man. Thank you for having me. Anytime, brother.